Unveiling Women's History Through Fiction: Kit Sergeant on Virginia Hall

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Civics and Coffee, a history podcast. The show all about United States history, delivered to you and the time it takes to enjoy your morning cup of coffee. I'm your host, Alicia, a historian trained in United States history with a passion for telling both the known and unknown parts of America's past. So grab your coffee and get ready for some bite-sized history. Hey everyone, welcome back. Earlier this year, I was lucky enough to give my first in-person talk at the lovely history camp in Boston. An event that prides itself in creating a non-conference vibe. History Camp likes to bring lovers of the past together for a weekend of interesting presentations and historic tours. While I centered my talk around the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, others were on hand to offer up their expertise in a whole host of areas and arenas, including a deep dive into Lizzie Borden and an interesting analysis of the 1918 pandemic. One of the excellent talks included historical fiction author Kit Sargent, who presented her research about American Revolutionary Agent 355. As you'll hear in our conversation, Kit has written several historical novels, and what I personally love about Kit's books is that she intentionally builds her stories around the women of the past. And not just women, but women who practiced spycraft. As a field that is overwhelmingly dominated by male voices, it is refreshing to see women take center stage. Now, I was experiencing a bit of technical difficulties on my end, so our interview is a little short, but I do hope that there is enough here to pique your interest and get you to follow Kit and grab a few of her books. And with that, I hope you all enjoy the conversation. Hey everyone! Joining me today is Kit Sargent. She is a writer with nine historical fiction novels to her name, including The Doctor of Auschwitz and Riveting Tales of Real Life Spies like Marie Madeleine Foucault and Nancy Wake. A teacher by profession and at heart, Kit loves to impart little known facts and dares readers to walk away from one of her books without learning at least one new thing. And she's here today to talk about her writing and the importance of including women in history. Welcome, Kit.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Thank you. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

So let's start with the quote unquote easy question. How'd you get into historical fiction writing?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

So I actually have two contemporary women's books published. My first one I published in 2015. It was called Throne for a Curve. And then I had another book called What It Is. And What It Is was a Kindle Scout Winner, which is a now completely defunct Amazon program where Amazon published your book. So I thought it would be my big break. It was not. And so I kind of was like regrouping and I read a really great book by Chris Fox called Writing to Market. And so I decided to switch genres. And I have always read a lot of historical fiction. And I was reading a lot of Philip O'Gregory and Allison Weir. And they write historical fiction about real life people. They write about Henry VIII and Elizabeth I and like the tutor area. So I was thinking I could do something similar, but I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to write about. So my whole thing is about smart women. So I Googled smart women in history that you've never heard of. And 355 was the first thing that popped up. And I was like, who's who's 355? I don't know who that is. I've never heard of that. She was a spy in the Revolutionary War. So the first American spy. I was like, okay, that's cool. I could write about American spies in the Revolutionary War. And then I could probably go on to Civil War, World War I. Always had Matahari like in the back of my head. Um and so I was like, oh, this is I have to write about Matahari. And that's basically how I got started.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, and speaking of Agent 355, you you gave a talk this year at a history conference that we we got a chance to connect at in in Boston. It's called History Camp. And you chose to give your talk about Agent 355. And so can you share a bit about what we think we know about Agent 355? And again, why you think it's important to share these types of stories with audiences?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yeah, so if you were to Google 355 like me, you're gonna get a lot of misinformation pop up. Um and it's kind of been sort of like a game of telephone, like it's been told so many times. But if you try to go back to the original sources, going back 250 years, the information that we know is like basically nothing other than one of Washington's main spies, Samuel Coper Sr., also known as Abraham Woodhull, he wrote about an acquaintance that he knew. And 355 was a code name for woman. So he mentioned this woman with whom they were gonna out with them all. So that's really what we know about her. She was somehow associated with Abraham Wolf Woodhull, which means she was associated with the culprit ring. And then all the other stuff that you're gonna read that she had a baby on a prison ship and that she was Culper Jr.'s secret lover. None of that is any evidence for it, but it's been told so many times that it's been, you know, repeated. And then some people will say, oh, she was the sixth member of the culprit ring, which we don't have evidence for that either. We just know she was associated with them. Um, but the reason why I think it's really important that we I write about these women is that we've never heard of them, but they are real life women and they really did contribute to America's struggle for freedom, especially the ones in the Revolutionary War, their hands were really tied because of coverture, which was uh kind of a law that said that women weren't didn't exist outside their husband. Right. So anything that their husband bought them during their marriage, like gifts of jewelry, they belonged to the husband. They couldn't, women couldn't own property, they couldn't really have jobs, they couldn't have any anything really in their name. So if you imagine being a second-class citizen back then and what they did to to help with America's freedom. So one of the things I want to do is get these women's names out there, because you you hear about the founding fathers all the time, but you don't necessarily hear about the founding women.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

And so Agent 355 is not the only woman that you've researched. You know, we mentioned that you've have several historical novels under your belt and that you you write primarily about women. So uh, you know, you've kind of indicated that you think it's important to talk about women, but I'm curious, what is it about women and spy networks that kind of drew your interest?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I think the intrigue there, I think nowadays we really look at spying as sort of like this very interesting, intriguing job. I will say all the times that I've been writing about, it was really a dirty thing, like you're lying and you're not who you say you are. But I think with James Bond, which Ian Fleming was actually a liaison to the special operations executive, which is a lot of the women that I write about in World War II worked for this program. So he kind of made the spying very intriguing and had this connotation that we think about it now. And I I still think we think about that with all, you know, the mission impossibles and all the spying stuff. So I I find it intriguing for sure. And I do like that these people are pretending to be someone that they're not to get information. Um, so yeah, that was the the thing that drew me to it at first, and I still like the intrigue on it.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Nice. And you've you've researched a lot and you've you've written about many of of these women. If there was any historical figure that you could sit and and have a cup of coffee with, who would it be and why?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah, I like the way you phrase that because I always always get off asked, like, who's my favorite character? I'm like, I can't, I can't pick my favorite person, but if I were to go some, I would totally be Nancy Wake. Because um, she was an Australian and she's just super fun. So one of the scenes that was a real life scene is that she could drink the men under the table, like Mary and Ravenwood style and Indiana Jones. And so that was kind of one of her ploys was to get these guys drunk and get them to talk information. And so I she just seems like a person I would really love to talk to. I love all the people that I've written about, but definitely I think Nancy and I could have a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

And so you are getting ready to release another book, and uh, and by the time this episode airs, it hopefully will be out in the world for everybody to to purchase. So gush about it. Tell us a little bit about it and what readers can expect.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

So Virginia Hall is my third book in my World War II women's spy series. And so I have two women's spy series. One's called Women's Spies in World War II, and the other one's called World War II Women's Spies. Um, but they're actually kind of different series. So Virginia Hall is following Nancy Wake. She's the first American that I've written about in a while. So with World War II, a lot of the action was on the continent. So most of the women I've been writing about were either French or they were British. So I haven't really written about Americans since the Civil War. But Virginia was trying to get into the American embassy. She really wanted to be a diplomat. And she had traveled the world, she spoke five different languages. She was clerking and being like a secretary and trying to move her way up in the American embassy. She was a woman in the 1940s, and um, eventually she also lost her leg. So she lost her leg in a hunting accident. She only really had one good leg, and so she got a lot of nose and a lot of doors shut first because she was a woman and then because of her accident. But then she found herself, um, she quit the American embassy. She went back to France and she always called France like her second home. She was there when the Nazis came into France to occupy France. And so she started working for driving ambulances. Eventually, she ended up in England and decided to work for special operations executive. She was one of the first spies completely in the SOE, but totally one of the first women. About two years after they hired her, they decided to actually send women to occupied France. But Virginia was the first one in there and um she had a lot of adventures. She was only supposed to be like a liaison and greet the new Asians as they were coming in and kind of get them set up with forgeried papers, with identity cards, with rationing cards and all the things. But she basically founded her own network too. And so she was working for the resistance in France.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

And so if you if people follow you on social media, they'll also kind of see like your insider perspective where you get to see like your research trips. So curious, like, how was it researching Virginia Hall?

SPEAKER_01 11:34

It was amazing. It was really the first time that I was able to I've been to France a couple of times, but it never coordinated with the book I was writing. So my uh daughter graduated high school. She wanted to go to Paris, and we're like, okay, we'll go to Paris, but first we'll spend like a week in France. And so we chose Lyon, which is where Virginia spent most of her time. So I literally got to walk the streets that she walked, trying to think of like, I'm exhausted, I can barely navigate these cobblestones. I have two good legs. So what would it be like to be doing this on one wooden leg? And so um I got to see where she went, Dr. Russet's office, a lot of the places she visited. And yeah, it was amazing. It was really very, very cool.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Awesome. And so you said this was the the third part of your series are is there plans to extend it? Because I mean, World War II is so, so huge.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, I have so normally I have at least two books in advance, and right now I have like four ones that I'm throwing around. And so there's I'm actually looking into maybe going into historical true crime, which is different for me. So I haven't written nonfiction in a long time. So I'm gonna try to explore that a little bit with a 1930s woman living in France, so kind of between the two wars, uh, she got murdered on the metro. So I'm playing with that and trying to see if I can do it, but at the same time, I've got like two more in the back of my head. Another spy book, but this time with uh a woman that was working for the Japanese. So I haven't written on that side of the war yet. I've spent a lot of time um with the Nazis, but not with the Japanese. Um and then the woman that kind of like caught this spy is from Geneva, Illinois, which is about half an hour where I live, away from where I live, but also like 10 minutes away from where I work. So I'm like, this is so local. I haven't been had a chance to be so local yet. So I have a lot of different topics, and I'm kind of excited because I've always had a book that I had to write that needed to get written. And right now I don't have like a set agenda. So I'm gonna explore, and I feel like some days I'll write this one because I feel like writing nonfiction, and some days I'll work on this one, and it's kind of like wherever I feel the flow going that day.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

How do you fit it all in? You're a teacher, you're a mother.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah, it's it's I have a very helpful husband who's he does a lot of the cooking and the cleaning and the driving. So my daughter's now a freshman in college, and she did some of the driving for my son, but now she's gone. And so my husband's driving him to all the activities and all the things. So when I'm home, I will usually eat dinner and then spend a couple hours at the computer. Summers are my big time where I can write. I also have to, you know, spend time with family and then travel, but I do a lot of my writing in the summer for sure.

unknown 14:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Wow. It's a it's amazing. Uh and so how do you see historical fiction kind of fitting into the world of public history and engaging those who may not be quote unquote interested in the past?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Um that's a good question. Without getting super political, I think that there are times that mirror other times. And so some of the lessons that we should have been learning, maybe we haven't been learning. And some of I do find myself mirroring some things that are happening. Um, with Letitia Toreau, who was the French woman murdered on the metro, I I'm very surprised right now to read what it was like in the 1930s France. And it was very um the two political parties were really head to head, and there was a lot of vitriol and hatred and like those kinds of things. And I was like, hmm, that might be paralleling a little bit of what we're seeing today with the the vitriol of the two parties going head to head in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah. And so you're always giving talks and sharing your work with the world. So, and you're an amazing social media follow. So, where should interest interested readers go and find out more about you and the work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Definitely Instagram. So Kit Sargent, and we have like a whole Kit Sargent chat group. And like when I have my books available, I send out advanced review copies for free. And then I'm doing a Substack now, so that that's a new thing for me. So Kit Sargent on Substack, and I do share videos and then I show like my research trips. I have one that I'm gonna be writing soon. It's been on the back of my mind. Obviously, writing books sometimes I get behind on my Substack, but I did go to a concentration camp over the summer where a lot of the women that I write about passed away. And so that's been on my list to be writing about what it was like to visit that concentration camp and see um the final resting place of some of the women that I wrote about. So the the Substack is like the background information, and I want to do a lot more connections of the people that I write about. Cause my husband's like, no one knows any of this stuff but you. But I was like, that guy that was in that book comes up in this book again because he was part of this, you know, resistance group, and both of these women interacted with them, and they're like, he's like, yeah, nobody else is gonna pick that up. And I'm like, but I can write about it and then they'll see the connection.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

And so before I let you go, is there anything you want future readers to know or be aware of?

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Um, just same thing. Follow me on social media and you'll get the that my whole idea is to really bring awareness to these women. So I do library talks mostly around where I am in the Chicagoland area, but then I also try to bring that information onto the Substack so we can learn the more information about these people in general, but mostly women.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah. And do you have any uh future future travel events, public talks in in late 26, early 27 that you want people to know about? Um, they're mostly local.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Um, so nothing major like history camp coming up in the near future that I know of yet, but maybe.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

So subscribe. Subscribe to her Substack and her Instagram so that you can find out where Kit's gonna be talking in a in a city near you. Exactly.

unknown 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

And then Virginia Hall is the is the latest book, correct?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yes, that one it will um the launch date is October 27th. So probably hopefully uh in a bookstore near you by the time a podcast comes out.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Perfect. All right, my my listeners out there, be sure to find Kit and her many, many historical novels in a bookstore near you. Ask your library to stock it and read about these historical women. And be sure to follow Kit so that you can find out about more historical women. Thank you so much, Kit. Thank you. My thanks again to Kit for spending her time with me. If you want to learn more about Kit, be sure to check out her website and subscribe to her substack and follow her on Instagram. And be sure to check out the show notes for those links. Thanks, peeps. I'll see you next time. Thanks for sitting down with me as I explore this chapter of American history. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe and share with your friends. I look forward to our next cup of coffee together.